Saturday, January 05, 2008

Thoughts on racism (part 8)

[To read the entire series, click on "racism" on the sidebar under "POSTS BY CATEGORIES".]

I'd been warned: when kinism gets discussed online, someone had commented over a year ago, all hell breaks loose. I've seen other discussions generate into ugliness, in the past and more recently. That's why I took the unusual step, for me, of moderating the comments on this blog.

But I'm just a little blog, read by few, and I don't think I have a whole lot to fear.

But, at the same time, it's been unreal. Kinist symapthizers (who get a little upset when you call them on their defense of kinism and kinists) are an interesting lot, to say the least. There's been a tremendous amount of dancing around the mulberry bush, hair splitting, contradictory statements, accusing others of lying, etc.

Although this is not at all an actual quote, this is how I summed up a recent long conversation:

Me: On the website, they made Statement A, Statement B, Statement C, and Statement D. I find kinism contrary to the word of God because of this scripture and that scripture.

Kinist Sympathizer: Yes, but did you find the name of my favorite kinist sympathizer anywhere on those statements?

Me: No, I'm just looking at what the Kinist Institute believes, according to their own statements. Besides, they don't sign their names to every statement.

KS: How can you lie about my favorite kinist?

Me: I'm not even talking about your favorite kinist. I'm just trying to examine kinist beliefs and hold them up to Scripture.

KS: You're such a liar. You claim that kinists are opposed to mixed race marriages.

Me: I just quoted that in their own words from their own website.

KS: You also lied when you said that kinists want their own territories that would exclude people of other races!

Me: But I was just quoting that from their website. Are you saying that doesn't say what kinists really believe? Can you point me to more accurate statements of their belief?

KS: Why do you keep attacking my favorite kinist?

Me: [groan] I give up!

Maybe that's the point.

I do know that the antidote to kinism and to being sucked into sympathizing with kinism is love --- the love of God.

All the law and the prophets can be pretty much summed up with what Jesus said were the two greatest commandments: that we love God and that we love others as much as we love ourselves. There is no room for loving our own race more than other races in there. There is no room for dividing the Body of Christ along racial or ethnic lines. Love God. Love others. Real love. That's the answer.


  1. Sigh.

    This is so sad, Rebecca. Did I ever call you a liar? No.

    But I will answer this comment and the one you left at TW. I have recently learned that each kinist really has different beliefs from each other. There is no real "kinism" movement, per se. The topic of that particular thread had to do with my friend, yes, and he does have different beliefs than what is on any of those sites you quoted from.

    You will also notice that none of the kinism sites link to one another. Why is that? It is because there are so many different beliefs even with kinism itself, already a VERY small "movement," just as there many different beliefs within other Christian groups.

    The problem I was attempting to point out, and I guess I didn't do a very good job of it, was that when we began the conversation by talking about one kinist, when the subject of kinism is brought up in general, then those beliefs are automatically assigned to my friend, even if they are not true of him. That tends to slander him unnecessarily, even if that wasn't the intention, and I realize it wasn't.

  2. Rebecca,

    My husband and I thouroughly enjoyed this post. Absolutely excellent. I've greatly appreicated all the contributions you've made to this debate.

    The love of God is truly the only thing that will transcend all this. God have mercy on us all.

    Thank you for this. You're a great blessing.

  3. Jen, do you think that you are the only kinist sympathizer that I've ever discussed kinism with?

    But, if you recall, you did quote me in your list of supposed untruths.

    My discussion has always been about kinism. It has been about Chad Degenhart only because I have quoted directly from the Kinist Institute. I know that you have tried to deny his involvement, but the fictitious name filing for the Kinist Institute (see lists him as one of the owners.

    I have not ascribed any beliefs to Chad Degenhart; however, it would be natural to assume that his involvement as one of the owners of the Kinist Institute speaks volumes for itself.

    I ask again: show me documentation for those kinists who have different beliefs than those at Direct me to their websites. Please. Direct me to statements of what it is that your friends really believe. Let them speak for themselves.

  4. Rebecca, I see now why you think this. I said that Chad is my friend and I also said that I have NO friends at the Kinist Institute. I have no friends at either.

    As far as I know, Chad has not written anything about kinism. That is why I kept asking for people to quote him. There is nothing I can point you to.

  5. Jen, is that your idea of a joke? You asked us to quote his writings because you knew they didn't exist?

    I'd rather assume that you were just trying to be inappropriately funny than assume that you were being purposefully misleading. But perhaps it would have been better had you let us in on your "joke".

    You still haven't cleared up your dancing around about being friends with the owner of the Kinist Institute while claiming you don't have any friends there.

    Frankly, Jen, I enjoy a good joke and all, but your game-playing has grown really tiresome.

  6. It wasn't a joke, Rebecca. I just found out. But, I hadn't seen any of his writings out there either, so if you had found any, I would have seriously considered them.

    I'd rather not spell it out about the Kinist Institute, Rebecca, but I will if you seriously don't understand what I'm hinting at. And, I just found out what I had suspected all along. It wasn't a game, but I wasn't going to say anything one way or another until I knew the truth.

  7. Jen, is that your idea of a joke?

    No, Rebecca, and we will really never know what Chad believes, because Jen knows all about it and is not at liberty to say what she knows. Chad won't either. Jen is the information broker for Chad, and she's holding her cards close to her right now.

    Booo-eeee-oooo!! (cue Twilight Zone music)

    So, Rebecca, even though Chad's name is on that site registering him as one of the owners of the Kinist Institute, and even though there are kinist blogs that link to Chad's locked up or now off-line sites, even though Brandon G. showed me a page where Chad was listed as the curriculum director for the Kinist Institute, and even though some of us read with our eyes a commenter's words from Date-Dabitur, saying he looked forward to Chad's work with the Kinist Institute, it is slanderous to claim that Chad has any responsibility for any general teachings and statements that are from the Kinist Institute.

    Even the general "this is what we believe statements."

    How could you be so illogical, Rebecca? No, Rebecca -- all that is circumstantial evidence. You need PROOF!!!

    (Wink wink nudge nudge)

    If Jen is right -- either Chad Degenhart has changed his views -- and he is the one who should say so, and not rely on someone who is currently lurching from one extreme to the other regarding her own blog, or else Chad has been, not a Kinist, but a mole within an organization of his own creation.

    And a public mole at that!

    There aren't many other alternatives, and although your mock conversation exaggerated a little bit, and even though others more on your (also my) side didn't always say things right -- I'd have to say, by and large, that that mock-up conversation is pretty much what happened.

    And Chad wasn't a "public mole." And if he has changed his views, until he makes some kind of a statement to that effect, I still say he is responsible for what WAS on the Kinism site, and what is currently on it, and that it is completely fair to say this is what he believes, especially in the general statements.

  8. I just read the statement of belief at my church's website. Is it fair to believe that my church leaders agree with that statement? Or would that be unfair? Isn't it the burden of my church leaders to let the people in the congregation know what they do and do not believe?

    I do not understand this secrecy at all.

    Jen, I seriously don't know what you are hinting at and I would appreciate if you just spelled it out. In fact, I don't think any of us know what you are hinting at. Seriously.

    What was it that you suspected all along?

  9. Rebecca, We argued this for 2 days at TW. Here is basically what Jen said in all 3 million posts:

    My Kinist friend is not a Kinist
    (My communist friend is not really a communist)

    Prove it by using direct quotes (my favorite since they were deleting faster than we can say Kinist)

    I refuse to 'shun' my Kinist friend
    (but refuses to publicly call him to repent, either)

    We are all liars. Jen is the only one telling the truth. Even though there have been at least 3 versions of the truth in the past 4 days.

    She has no Kinist friends at the Kinist Institute or on (even though Chad's name was listed as curriculum director for the Kinist Inst. I am thnking we have a Clintonian statement here...that we must parse very carefully)

    Rebecca, it may help you to know that Jen was saying on sound of grace that Polygamy is not sin because it is not listed as a sin in the Bible. (Does this mean I can smoke crack, now? It is not in there, either)

    So, blue is red and red is blue. Got that? Good is evil and evil is good.