tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7123966.post2597018506806200096..comments2023-08-07T05:58:59.078-07:00Comments on Random Musings: Fall to grace, part 9Rebeccahttp://www.blogger.com/profile/01847552432061325769noreply@blogger.comBlogger11125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7123966.post-46527348434668758892007-06-22T12:25:00.000-07:002007-06-22T12:25:00.000-07:00Marie, I can see where you would assume I was toss...Marie, I can see where you would assume I was tossing out all of Reformed theology, especially since I described having it "ripped out of my hands". However, as I examined and studied more --- and held the WCF as well as my favorite theology books --- up to the scrutiny of Scripture, it became more clear to me what was extra-Biblical and what wasn't.<BR/><BR/>You might want to read my "position paper" (in the form of a letter to my OPC pastor) at http://blogmuse.blogspot.com/2007/06/fall-to-grace-aftermath-part-7.html<BR/>It outlines where I parted company with our church. (By the way, as long term readers of my blog know, I've waffled back and forth on the issue of communion since writing that letter.)Rebeccahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01847552432061325769noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7123966.post-68644306836045395252007-06-22T11:16:00.000-07:002007-06-22T11:16:00.000-07:00I am starting to think that you may be throwing th...I am starting to think that you may be throwing the baby out with the bath water.<BR/><BR/>Jen had some terrible experiences in an assembly that really overstepped its biblical bounds, assuming that her story is true - I need to be fair since I have not spoken to anyone at BCA, but I have no reason to disbelieve. Tulipgrrl obviously got stuck in some, in my opinion, abusive stuff that the Ezzos taught as doctrine. Also much reference is made to teachers who are apparently saying: women can't teach their children, etc. etc. etc. Like Gothard and so forth, apparently.<BR/><BR/>I remember the Ezzo wave going through the PCA we attended when we were in Virginia. Some babies got awfully skinny. There were exposes on the local news, one about a baby who dehydrated to death, oh that poor mother! God have mercy.<BR/><BR/>However, I'm going to say I think we can reject the extra-Biblical demands and theology that pervaded the various teachings/ministries I just mentioned without throwing out everything reformed theology upholds. These extra-Biblical teachings are far more recent than "Calvinism" is. I don't think it's quite fair to equate them with the Westminster Confession, the five points, what have you.<BR/><BR/>As Ezzo teaching swept through our PCA, most of us examined it and rejected it. A few did embrace it, but they were in the minority. I think it is our responsibility as Christians to examine every "new" thing carefully against Scripture and reject it if it is unBiblical, or even extra-Biblical.Mariehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17421506990963764612noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7123966.post-1491039528725370332007-06-18T19:53:00.000-07:002007-06-18T19:53:00.000-07:00I've felt the need to clarify something. . . When ...I've felt the need to clarify something. . . When I mentioned the Ezzos, I didn't mean for it to come across as a standing aside and pointing my finger,<I>"See the legalism there!? ----->"</I><BR/><BR/>But rather, since we had been sucked into Ezzo crud, as the Lord led us deeper into His grace, the finger was pointing at myself and how I embraced forms and formulas and "philosophies." <BR/><BR/>My motive was wanting to do the "right" and "Biblical" thing, not try to "earn" my salvation or approval. But the reality was that I and other Ezzo parents around me were ured away from the Gospel and grace. <BR/><BR/>As much as the Ezzos and well-meaning parents want to proclaim their motive is not legalism, the resultant thinking and living is <I>de facto</I> rejection of grace. And leaving behind that legalism was such an amazing struggle for me--and I still see that being played out in other's lives.TulipGirlhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10491713586488210547noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7123966.post-90270563687820833772007-06-14T12:14:00.000-07:002007-06-14T12:14:00.000-07:00Hi Rebecca, you are kind! I don't worry about peo...Hi Rebecca, you are kind! I don't worry about people getting my name wrong.<BR/><BR/>I couldn't point to a verse FROM SCRIPTURE, as you say, that directs us to consider the laws as ceremonial/moral/civil. Any more than I can point to one that says "There is one God in three persons."<BR/><BR/>It goes to interpretation, that is, I read the Scripture, and I see some laws I can't keep because the temple is closed for business.<BR/><BR/>Maybe some of the laws are hard to know about - does the LORD want us to avoid blending different fibers in our clothes? - but when I see that these laws apply to being "ceremonially clean" for the "temple," well, the temple being closed, I personally don't struggle with it much.Mariehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17421506990963764612noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7123966.post-34694204136897064412007-06-12T10:42:00.000-07:002007-06-12T10:42:00.000-07:00Marie, I want to apologize for getting your name w...Marie, I want to apologize for getting your name wrong in my previous comment. I'm not sure why my fingers didn't type what my brain was thinking. I don't know how to edit comments, or if they even can be edited, so I'm stuck leaving it as it is.<BR/><BR/>Yes, Tulip, I can really relate to the whole Ezzo thing as object lesson. In fact, it is ironic that I could see the legalism and lack of grace there, but couldn't see it in my own life. But God really used all of that to achieve His purposes in my life. And He's not done yet!Rebeccahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01847552432061325769noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7123966.post-61380856343234463922007-06-11T21:37:00.000-07:002007-06-11T21:37:00.000-07:00"But I believed what I was taught --- that Law-kee...<I>"But I believed what I was taught --- that Law-keeping was a sanctifying work. Now I believe that sanctification is all grace; it's all Jesus; my efforts cannot sanctify me any more than they can save me."</I><BR/><BR/> Some (not all) of what you posted rings true with my growth and experience. Oh, how very much I trusted the Lord for my salvation--and yet how much I wanted to earn my heavenly brownie points and be a "good girl." One of the things that I have been so thankful for within MTW, is the emphasis on grace and the Gospel. God used MTW and being in Ukraine to open my eyes to the falseness in that. . .<BR/><BR/>(You can imagine how. . . fun. . . it has been to see how God used the Ezzo crud in our lives as a vivid object lesson related to this. . .)<BR/><BR/><BR/>Still. . . there are areas of struggle and. . . hard to put into words.TulipGirlhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10491713586488210547noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7123966.post-89914820734177211332007-06-11T20:51:00.000-07:002007-06-11T20:51:00.000-07:00"Jen, you will realize that, despite how it may fe..."Jen, you will realize that, despite how it may feel as if you are falling, despite everything, God's arms have been carrying you the entire time. Sometimes we only see it in hindsight."<BR/><BR/>Is there a smiley face for tears rolling down my face?<BR/><BR/>That is just what I needed to hear right now.Jen Fishburnehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08240505611077771944noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7123966.post-13086962577843617362007-06-11T12:56:00.000-07:002007-06-11T12:56:00.000-07:00"And for the first time, you made me face the fact..."And for the first time, you made me face the fact that I am a Pharisee. I really thought I never judged others with all my rules. Ha!"<BR/><BR/>Ah, Jen, join the club! That was one of the most painful things. I actually had to go back and apologize to some people. Unfortunately, there are people online that I had attacked for "antinomianism" and couldn't find to go back and apologize to.<BR/><BR/>"I thought about asking if the pain ever went away, but from some of your recent posts here, it sounds like you are still where I am. And you did this study 8 years ago? Is this what I have to look forward to?"<BR/><BR/>Jen, Jen --- I have experienced such tremendous joy. I know you will find it too, at the end of the "desert wanderings". But even when I was almost giddy with excitement over my freedom and my new-found intimacy with Christ, I also knew there was unfinished business in my life. God is good and gracious. He didn't try to dump everything on me all at once.<BR/><BR/>I think that now is the time that God is dealing with me about my issues with the Church. Yes, it's painful. In some ways, it's very reminiscent of my fall to grace, except that it's not as intense a theological crisis. But the cliff analogy seems to fit this experience as well.<BR/><BR/>Also, in those intervening years, my older brother (who was also my lifelong hero and best friend) battled cancer. I was with him when he was ushered into eternity. There is stuff there that I haven't dealt with.<BR/><BR/>I think God wants to lift those burdens I've been carrying. But just as I clung to the filthy rags of my attempts at righteousness, I'm clinging to all this baggage. Yes, it's stubborn and foolish. Yes, I want to be free. But I'm scared.<BR/><BR/>Jen, you will realize that, despite how it may feel as if you are falling, despite everything, God's arms have been carrying you the entire time. Sometimes we only see it in hindsight.Rebeccahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01847552432061325769noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7123966.post-1449071932845390462007-06-11T12:40:00.000-07:002007-06-11T12:40:00.000-07:00Maria, thanks so much for your comments and questi...Maria, thanks so much for your comments and questions. I'm hoping that some of them will be answered in my posts to come. I wrote out a lengthy reply but somehow killed it before posting it. So here goes again:<BR/><BR/>First of all, I wanted to make clear that my anguish was not something that went on during my entire time in the OPC. It was a crisis precipitated by my examining the Scripture and concluding that much of my beliefs and practices were not in line with God's Word.<BR/><BR/>I wanted to address a few things that you wrote.<BR/><BR/>"I've been in nothing but the OPC (Calvinistic) church since I was saved at age 21. I have known a lot of reformed Christians, warts and all. I know the "You know you are a Calvinist" post was tongue in cheek, but I wonder, were you struggling with snobby, hypocritical brethren? No one I know smokes, likes France, or has much of a superiority complex. I have known a couple of "wine snobs," but we can extend them grace, no? Jesus came for the wine snobs, too."<BR/><BR/>Ah, yes, I believe in extending grace to wine snobs. Was I struggling with hypocritical, snobby brethren? Not in real life. On line, at times, yes. But the people in our church fellowship were dear, sweet people. The thing about smoking and France seemed so silly to me, which is part of its humor --- although I know that a number of Reformed "celebrities" enjoy their cigars. To me, this is a cultural issue and an area of Christian liberty.<BR/><BR/><BR/>"1. You thought you had to keep the law perfectly, and were a lesser Christian or not a Christian if you didn't."<BR/><BR/>I knew the God I served was reasonable and understood that I was frail and sinful. I also never doubted my salvation during this entire time. But I believed what I was taught --- that Law-keeping was a sanctifying work. Now I believe that sanctification is all grace; it's all Jesus; my efforts cannot sanctify me any more than they can save me.<BR/><BR/>"2. You can't go along with 1 1/2 of the points of Calvin (which ones, I am wondering?)"<BR/><BR/>I see this as an entirely separate issue from the Law. Yes, during this time of study after my fall to grace, I did examine those 5 points that I had once been so staunch about. I was disappointed to discover that Calvin himself was rather "weak" on limited atonement. Oh, well...<BR/><BR/>"3. There was a sinful sense of smugness or superiority in yourself and in others."<BR/><BR/>Ah, yes...when our focus becomes the Law and our efforts to obey it, rather than Jesus, it is all to easy to become both prideful and full of condemnation. When we look at externals, it is all to easy to "compare". I stand guilty of this.<BR/><BR/>"4. You now have issues with the puritan view of keeping the Lord's Day holy (only church participation, resting, works of mercy and necessity, or edifying activities allowed)"<BR/><BR/>The Puritans have left us a wonderful legacy. But where they veer from Scripture, I cannot follow them. I believe that Sabbath-keeping is one of those areas.<BR/><BR/>"5. You think there is no differentiation between the OT laws about moral issues, civil behavior, and temple worship (moral, civil, and ceremonial law)."<BR/><BR/>I am still, years later, willing to stand corrected on this --- because it is such a key issue. If anyone can show me, <B>from Scripture</B> how we can derive both these categories and the rule for determining which law falls in which category, I will be more than happy to change my view. But it has to be <B>from Scripture</B> --- my stance on Sola Scriptura has become far stronger than every before.<BR/><BR/>"In re: the three types of laws, I don't see any sentence in scripture that says there are three types."<BR/><BR/>You're right. It's not there. It is an extra-Biblical, man-made construct.<BR/><BR/>"It's just that they all fit into one category or the other rather easily."<BR/><BR/>I used to think so, as well. But then I began to study more and discovered that far more learned minds than mine disagreed over certain laws. And, as I read through the Law and tried to fit different laws in different categories, I discovered that it was not as easy as I'd thought.<BR/><BR/>Am I free to wear poly-cotton blends, even though the Law forbids it? Is this particular law ceremonial or moral? How do I know?<BR/><BR/>"The civil laws, having to do with, you know, zoning and fences and so forth, I could apply if I were in a position of influence over civil laws. I would, for example, support an amendment which says a newly married man should not be drafted into war. However, these opportunities do not come up regularly."<BR/><BR/>Would you support laws requiring the stoning of sabbath-breakers? Or are these laws ceremonial rather than civil? How can we be sure?<BR/><BR/>It is these questions, and many others like them, that brought on my crisis. I had to re-examine so much of what I was taught, and also what I had come up with on my own. And that was very painful...for a season. Then came joy, and a closeness with my precious Lord and Savior that I had never dreamed possible. But I'll write more about that later.Rebeccahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01847552432061325769noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7123966.post-11979089801393541912007-06-11T12:33:00.000-07:002007-06-11T12:33:00.000-07:00Rebecca, I appreciate you doing this for me, but a...Rebecca, I appreciate you doing this for me, but at the same time, this is a real gut-punch. Even though I didn't get to bed until 3:30 this morning, I still couldn't sleep. And even though I am supposed to be writing my article, this is all I can think about - again. Mike's study consumed my whole life when I did it. <BR/><BR/>When a friend told me you were writing your story, I was afraid to come here because I thought God might use your story to show me something else He wanted to rip away. As soon as I started reading it, I had to immediately go back to the Bible study group and repent for something I just written them a couple hours earlier.<BR/><BR/>And for the first time, you made me face the fact that I am a Pharisee. I really thought I never judged others with all my rules. Ha!<BR/><BR/>I don't know how Mike answered your questions here, but I know that if I even have any "hedges" right now, I will jump right back into my safety net. Everything was ripped away from me and I can't take just a little of it back. But I don't know where to turn either. I call it being in "no man's land."<BR/><BR/>You have nice friends, Rebecca. When I tried to tell my friends what I was learning, they just said, "It's about time someone told you that!"<BR/><BR/>I thought about asking if the pain ever went away, but from some of your recent posts here, it sounds like you are still where I am. And you did this study 8 years ago? Is this what I have to look forward to?Jen Fishburnehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08240505611077771944noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7123966.post-58351408484242585812007-06-11T11:15:00.000-07:002007-06-11T11:15:00.000-07:00I've read everything all over again, and I can see...I've read everything all over again, and I can see you were in anguish. But I am still not sure WHY. Was it because you felt that you had to obey the law perfectly, and that if you did not, you were lost?<BR/><BR/>Is that what you mean by being "under the law?" That's how I interpret the phrase. <BR/><BR/>In our church (OPC!) we do recite the ten commandments, but I don't think it's because we are under the law. Christianity is, among other things, a way of life, which has its standards for living. When we recite the ten c's, I am reminded that I am a sinner, because I am reminded that I have not kept the law. However, throughout the service, I am reminded that I am saved, because of Jesus' perfect keeping of that law and sacrifice of His life. I could see where, if all we did in church, was to recite the ten commandments, we'd just be a legalistic society. But honestly, the sacrifice of Christ is preached quite faithfully each time!<BR/><BR/>I've been in nothing but the OPC (Calvinistic) church since I was saved at age 21. I have known a lot of reformed Christians, warts and all. I know the "You know you are a Calvinist" post was tongue in cheek, but I wonder, were you struggling with snobby, hypocritical brethren? No one I know smokes, likes France, or has much of a superiority complex. I have known a couple of "wine snobs," but we can extend them grace, no? Jesus came for the wine snobs, too.<BR/><BR/>I will put out the theory that there is a sense of smugness in mankind as a whole, and probably in most believers. I don't think it's the exclusive possession of the five-pointers.<BR/><BR/>Here is what I glean are the issues you have with your former Christian walk:<BR/><BR/>1. You thought you had to keep the law perfectly, and were a lesser Christian or not a Christian if you didn't.<BR/><BR/>2. You can't go along with 1 1/2 of the points of Calvin (which ones, I am wondering?)<BR/><BR/>3. There was a sinful sense of smugness or superiority in yourself and in others.<BR/><BR/>4. You now have issues with the puritan view of keeping the Lord's Day holy (only church participation, resting, works of mercy and necessity, or edifying activities allowed)<BR/><BR/>5. You think there is no differentiation between the OT laws about moral issues, civil behavior, and temple worship (moral, civil, and ceremonial law).<BR/><BR/>In re: the three types of laws, I don't see any sentence in scripture that says there are three types. It's just that they all fit into one category or the other rather easily. I think it is natural, when we read the laws of God, to think about how they apply to us. <BR/><BR/>I can't begin to keep any law to do with the temple, since there isn't one, and since we are told repeatedly that temple worship is over.<BR/><BR/>The civil laws, having to do with, you know, zoning and fences and so forth, I could apply if I were in a position of influence over civil laws. I would, for example, support an amendment which says a newly married man should not be drafted into war. However, these opportunities do not come up regularly.<BR/><BR/>What is left is the laws that tell me how to live, for instance, not to commit various sexual sins, defraud others, or positively, to be charitable, speak honestly, and so forth. These are summarized in the ten commandments, as I see it.<BR/><BR/>Have I summed up fairly? Or am I missing something? I hope you don't mind my leaving this long comment, and I know you don't answer to me - I am however, scratching my head, and perhaps since I am, others are as well. In other words, if I have summed up correctly, I don't understand why the extreme spiritual unhappiness.Mariehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17421506990963764612noreply@blogger.com